Theological Entrapment
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in our men’s morning study we’re going through romans 9, 10 and 11.
so far the 20 minute devotions have been really wonderful. today we came to Romans 9:19-24.
as many of you know, these 3 chapters are ‘champion’ chapters of reformed theology, specifically calvinism, which we don’t agree with.
we don’t agree with arminianism either. we believe that the Bible teaches and demonstrates that God is sovereign and man has free will.
can i wrap my little brain around that? no. but it is what the Bible shows us.
something i hadn’t really thought about specifically was brought up by my dad this morning.
it’s what i’m dubbing ‘theological entrapment’ (i’m sure someone else has used the term).
if God is sovereign and man has no freewill, then God causes all things.
if God causes all things, then the purity of God’s justice is in question.
because if man has no freewill, then when God condemns a person to hell, He is holding that person responsible for a sin that the person did not commit. God would be holding someone responsible for a wickedness that was constructed for, then forced upon them.
that is not just.
in fact, that is unjust. it is a perversion of justice.
i had never really thought about it that way before.
thoughts?
bibling, know what you believe, reformed theology | October 29th, 2008
Personally, I don’t subscribe to a brand of Calvinism that is quite that extreme.
I believe that every man has a personal responsibility to respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit. How the Holy Spirit works/calls/chooses/etc. is a mystery that I can’t understand.
I also believe that God is sovereign and if he wants you, he will get you :)
My brain hurts…
@Casey – sounds like you’re like us.
which we already knew.
“What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—”
I suspect Calvinism is so hard to swallow because it indeed requires a fundamental redefinition of what most modern folks understand by “justice.” I agree with you, it is not easy to work with these passages.
@N. Dan Smith – it is interesting to use these quotes and apply them solely to individuals.
when paul spoke in this passage wasn’t he heavily referencing Jeremiah 18 and 19? are we to suppose that we can lift these phrases out of God’s word and treat them as if they have no context?
that was the point of our discussion this morning @ the study. a lot of interesting thoughts in there.
bottom line, i agree with dave hunt when i look at the doctrines of John Calvin when i say, “what love is this?”
Gene,
Reformed Theology/Calvinism is an interesting and complex issue. I -after much research, study, prayer, and searching of God’s Word- find myself leaning towards RT/Calvinism. (Strangely enough I made a very short post about the issue before I came to visit Luke’s blog and your blog.)
I think the ideas that you are referring to are more related to “hyper-Calvinism” rather than historical “Calvinism” which the former is by no means the latter. “Hyper-Calvinism” gives you the teachings that God has double elected and all those horrible stereotypes that get lumped into Calvinism.
Nathan A. Finn from his “Southern Baptist Calvinism: Setting the Record Straight” found in “Calvinism: A Southern Baptist Dialogue” (pp 181) writes: “[Hyper-Calvinists] deny the free moral agency and responsibility for unbelievers to repent and believe, which turns divine providence into fatalism…They restrict the gospel invitation to the elect, which denies the free offer of the gospel to all people…[They] teach that non-Christians must be convinced they are among the elect before they have a “warrant” to believe, which undermines salvation by grace through faith…”
And quoting from the “Abstract of Principals” ( http://www.founders.org/abstract.html ) Finn quotes: “God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.”
God knew from the beginning the Fall would take place. I dare say that He -from the beginning- ordained the Fall to take place. He knew from the foundation who would and would not choose Him over themselves. The matter is decided, the choices are already made, the offer was for everyone, but despite the countless who would reject Him and choose damnation, God still chose to create us and set His plans in motion for His glory.
If God from the beginning knew us (those who would repent and turn to Him), then we are His sheep and we know His voice. For us, we have been chosen for His Glory. In the screams of the damned (to borrow from John Piper) we can know the richness of His Grace, Mercy, and Love. That though we all deserve Wrath, God has prepared a way to Him to save us from judgment, and we can know by the wrath He pours out upon those who reject Him, the Mercy He has shown upon us.
I don’t think that Calvinism assaults the Word of God at all. C.H. Spurgeon writes: ”I have my own opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross.” (The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).
But I digress. There is a lot to chew on in the passages you are studying, and I miss greatly attending the men’s group I was in back home in Washington.
Blessings,
Michael
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